Born-Kite LongStar 2

[Jason]

On 26/01/2017 at 2:02 AM, speed rider said:

 

How was the rating for the peak 2, certainly not 10/10 ?

Not really relevant as the Peak 3 has been released.

[speed rider]

Direct comparison of LongStar-2 with Peak 3, on the test weekend of Flysurfer (27. and 28. January 2017) at the Resia lake (Italy).

Conclusion of the tester "JoKo":    Personally I have not been able to discover any advantages when testing from Peak3.

 

These are the advantages of the LongStar-2:

-parks cleanly at the wind window edge

-turns fast

-is stable in the sky, whether it is a low wind, a stronger gust or a short wind hole no ear flaps

-flight behavior very close to the tube kite, by no means like a typical soft kite

-was able to pull up very well even in low winds and also build up speed (a little sinuse with little wind presupposed)

-FAS Safety works perfectly (have a 4 linen bar rebuilt, with 5th leash)

-depower very well and he does not flutter around like a bag in the wind

 

The complete report of "JoKo" can be read at the German kite forum:

https://www.drachenforum.net/index.php/Thread/93581-Born-Kite-LongStar-Sammelthread/?pageNo=7

 

[Jason]

Looks like another biased review to me.

"Conclusion of the tester "JoKo":    Personally I have not been able to discover any advantages when testing from Peak3."

Clearly not an observant tester.

Here is a list of advantages of the Peak 3 off the top of my head-

- Better upwind performance.

-Better lift and jumps

- Backpack and harness option

- The BAR

 

[Darren Tibbey]

53 minutes ago, Jason said:

Looks like another biased review to me.

"Conclusion of the tester "JoKo":    Personally I have not been able to discover any advantages when testing from Peak3."

Clearly not an observant tester.

Here is a list of advantages of the Peak 3 off the top of my head-

- Better upwind performance.

-Better lift and jumps

- Backpack and harness option

- The BAR

 

Is it just the fact that you dont like them because you dont stock them? Not many other people have issues with them.

[windstruck]

54 minutes ago, Jason said:

Looks like another biased review to me.

"Conclusion of the tester "JoKo":    Personally I have not been able to discover any advantages when testing from Peak3."

Clearly not an observant tester.

Here is a list of advantages of the Peak 3 off the top of my head-

- Better upwind performance.

-Better lift and jumps

- Backpack and harness option

- The BAR

 

Next month I hope to be able to offer an unabashed unbiased comparison between the merits of the P3s and LS2. I'm assembling a single skin quiver for buggying consisting of P3s (4m, 6m, and 12m) and 9.5m LS2. I'll fly the two smaller kites off of a 50 cm FS Infinity 3.0 PP bar and the two larger kites off the same bar in a 60cm width. 

Testing will take place over the last week in March at IBX 2017 which is the largest annual buggy event at Lake Ivanpah dry lake bed on the California / Nevada state line near Las Vegas. I'll take video and try my best to do a fair comparison, size differences not withstanding. 

[BigTone]

I dont get it.

8 hours ago, Jason said:

Looks like another biased review to me.

"Conclusion of the tester "JoKo":    Personally I have not been able to discover any advantages when testing from Peak3."

Clearly not an observant tester.

Here is a list of advantages of the Peak 3 off the top of my head-

- Better upwind performance.

-Better lift and jumps

- Backpack and harness option

- The BAR

 

I dont get it? "Another biased review"... i havnt seen a biased review of the LS2 yet from anyone who has flown one. But i am getting fed up with the constant comparisons to the peak2 and now Peak3. "Better lifts and jumps" big deal... if i wanted tons of lift in a buggy kite. Most of us buggy riders dont. "Back pack and harness option"... again.... so what. Id rather have the soft bags the ls2s come in because the are far easier to pack in my buggy bag. Ive not flown a peak so i cant and havnt compared it when talking about the LS2. Other people here have flown both and all seem to agree that the LS2 and Peaks are both fine kites. Slightly different, with different charecteristics, but then thats what you expect. 

I just dont get why the polarisation and the need to try and "proove" which kite has the bigger dick. Far as i can see, they are both well endowed. End of rant.

 

[windstruck]

12 hours ago, BigTone said:

I dont get it.

I dont get it? "Another biased review"... i havnt seen a biased review of the LS2 yet from anyone who has flown one. But i am getting fed up with the constant comparisons to the peak2 and now Peak3. "Better lifts and jumps" big deal... if i wanted tons of lift in a buggy kite. Most of us buggy riders dont. "Back pack and harness option"... again.... so what. Id rather have the soft bags the ls2s come in because the are far easier to pack in my buggy bag. Ive not flown a peak so i cant and havnt compared it when talking about the LS2. Other people here have flown both and all seem to agree that the LS2 and Peaks are both fine kites. Slightly different, with different charecteristics, but then thats what you expect. 

I just dont get why the polarisation and the need to try and "proove" which kite has the bigger dick. Far as i can see, they are both well endowed. End of rant.

 

I for one dug your rant.

I'm with you @BigTone the last thing I want in a buggy engine is lift.  Lift to me for a buggy is the precursor to an OBE, the last thing I want.  I buggy with an AQR that automatically deploys if I start to get lifted out of the seat, that's how much I want to avoid lift.  The rub, it seems, is that lower lift seems to somewhat lead to less upwind performance.  I'm too much of a novice as it relates to the physics of all this to know just how directly upwind performance is related to "lift", AR, etc.

Honestly, for me, my ideal buggy engines are boring workhorses that are stable for park and ride, provide ample DP at my fingertips,  fly in low winds when necessary, turn and respond quickly to input, but aren't particularly "twitchy".  Those sorts of attributes come in Peak2s and I hope Peaks3s.  From the reviews I've read here on XK this seems to describethe LS2 to a tee.  I'm excited by that which is why I just ordered a 9.5m LS2 to complement some P3s I also have on order (I sold my quiver of P2s to make room for these new delights).

If I do understand things correctly (and this is BEFORE hands on experience) the P3 and LS2 do seem to both sit in a similar niche which is why the comparison comes up so much.  The question I suspect for some (at least it is for me) is which brand should one invest in for a quiver of single-skin buggy engines?  My motivations go in other directions too in that I want to give business to Steffen Born to keep his brand of kites successful and keep him innovating, and I want to keep my local Flysurfer dealer in business since he has given me so much good guidance over these past years.

Bottom line, I'm thrilled that both Flysurfer AND Born-Kites seem to have SS winners here, and which one is better endowed when both seem to be at full dangle may be a fools errand to work out.  Real 1st world problems these!

[Gamechick]

6 hours ago, windstruck said:

I for one dug your rant.

I'm with you @BigTone the last thing I want in a buggy engine is lift.  Lift to me for a buggy is the precursor to an OBE, the last thing I want.  I buggy with an AQR that automatically deploys if I start to get lifted out of the seat, that's how much I want to avoid lift.  The rub, it seems, is that lower lift seems to somewhat lead to less upwind performance.  I'm too much of a novice as it relates to the physics of all this to know just how directly upwind performance is related to "lift", AR, etc.

Honestly, for me, my ideal buggy engines are boring workhorses that are stable for park and ride, provide ample DP at my fingertips,  fly in low winds when necessary, turn and respond quickly to input, but aren't particularly "twitchy".  Those sorts of attributes come in Peak2s and I hope Peaks3s.  From the reviews I've read here on XK this seems to describethe LS2 to a tee.  I'm excited by that which is why I just ordered a 9.5m LS2 to complement some P3s I also have on order (I sold my quiver of P2s to make room for these new delights).

If I do understand things correctly (and this is BEFORE hands on experience) the P3 and LS2 do seem to both sit in a similar niche which is why the comparison comes up so much.  The question I suspect for some (at least it is for me) is which brand should one invest in for a quiver of single-skin buggy engines?  My motivations go in other directions too in that I want to give business to Steffen Born to keep his brand of kites successful and keep him innovating, and I want to keep my local Flysurfer dealer in business since he has given me so much good guidance over these past years.

Bottom line, I'm thrilled that both Flysurfer AND Born-Kites seem to have SS winners here, and which one is better endowed when both seem to be at full dangle may be a fools errand to work out.  Real 1st world problems these!

I'm with you - I like a workhorse for buggying, nothing that is going to surprise me too much and get me into trouble (I can do that on my own).  My go-to kite for both buggying and static flying is a Nasa Star 2.  They just suit my weight/strength and style of flying - and isn't that whats important?  And I like Born Kites because Stefan always addresses email to Tony AND me even thought it's Tony that emails him, just cause he knows I fly too...just sayin.

[windstruck]

10 hours ago, Gamechick said:

I'm with you - I like a workhorse for buggying, nothing that is going to surprise me too much and get me into trouble (I can do that on my own).  My go-to kite for both buggying and static flying is a Nasa Star 2.  They just suit my weight/strength and style of flying - and isn't that whats important?  And I like Born Kites because Stefan always addresses email to Tony AND me even thought it's Tony that emails him, just cause he knows I fly too...just sayin.

@Gamechick I too love the Nasa Stars!  I used to own a complete quiver of NS3s (1.5m - 12.5m) and loved them for buggying.  When the wind and kite size match up just right park and ride buggying with a B-K NPW is a little bit of alright.  After a while I ended up preferring my Peak2s for buggying for their range of wind speeds and DP.  I got into trouble a few times with too large a NS3 in the air...  After a while I sold or gave away my larger NS3s but kept my 1.5m, 2.5m, and 3.2m (thanks John!), set them up with z-bridles and fly them static from handles.  I always bring them with me to the beach and love flying those little guys with my toes in the sand.

Email with Steffen is always interesting!  It would seem that his bride Kerstin has a slightly better command of English.  Some of his translations can be pretty funny!

[speed rider]

Nice video on the Facebook page of BORN-KITE to see.

 

 

[windstruck]

THIS JUST IN:

Steffen is coming out with a brand new LS2 bar!  I've used this adjustable width bar a lot with my (previous) quiver of NASA Star 3s and I really liked how you can customize the width for the different size kites and conditions.  To celebrate this new bar I've decided to order a 3.5m LS2 (to go along with my already ordered 9.5m!).  I'm really excited by this setup.  In all, I'll end up with a SS DP buggy quiver thus:  3.5m LS2, 6.0m P3, 9.5m LS2, and 12.0m P3.

Pokey's a happy pony.....

 

[andy666]

I'm no expert, but.... other then a new chicken loop that bar looks exactly the same. 

[windstruck]

3 hours ago, andy666 said:

I'm no expert, but.... other then a new chicken loop that bar looks exactly the same. 

I'm not quite sure what you are comparing it to,  but the bar John was sent with the demo 5.5m and was photographed for his review here on XK was of a single fixed width. This bar has adjustable width holes on the end, allowing you to move the outer brake line pigtails apart in 5 cm increments from 45-60 cm (5 holes). I've got a bar just like this one other than color that is very sturdy and high quality.  There are five LS2 sizes ranging from 3.5-11.0m so I suppose one could string the pigtails at a diffferent width for each (3.5m on the two closest holes at 45cm wide, 11.5m on the two widest holes at 60cm, etc.). 

[BigTone]

Looks like they have two new bars. Both with the new chicken loop. One has the moulded float style ends and is a bit more expensive.  Other than that i don't see a need for any other improvement, the control system works fine. (The much maligned twin stopper ball is one of those things that I just cant understand what the fuss is about - I find it super easy to work.)

The best part is the fact that no other manufacturer I know of responds to user feedback this quickly.

Edited February 20, 2017 by BigTone
Stupidly hitting post before id finished

[andy666]

On 20/01/2017 at 4:00 AM, speed rider said:

BORN-KITE offers on Monday another bar for the Long Star 2, to seen on the facebook page.

 

Really @windstruck?

Because it looks like the same bar that was released back in January. Just with a new chicken loop and bright colours.

[Tiger37]

Look what arrived today!  Big smile on my face. The packaging was excellent and the kites and bar were delivered in good condition. On first inspection I am extremely pleased. Having enjoyed flying the 5.5m LongStar 2 on the trial with @jhn.holgate, I am really looking forward to seeing how these two babies, the 3.5 and 7.5m perform. Will try and get out on my local oval later this afternoon when winds are predicted to get up to 8 knots.

Report to follow once flown a few times. @jhn.holgate- should I add any report to your 5.5m report or put it on this thread?

[Tiger37]

Over the weekend I managed a couple of sessions with my new Long Star 2 kites. I intend to fly more hours in different conditions before I add anything to @jhn.holgate review of the 5.5m. However at this early stage I thought I would make some comments on the bar which has raised a number of comments on this thread.

If you look at the bar photos on John's report you will see it was a red/blue basic bar. The Born Kites website shows 2 new bars and as pointed out by @andy666, there is a Totem universal bar on Facebook. I ordered the basic bar and received the Totem universal bar. In the couple of hours of initial use over the weekend in winds 8 to 10 knots, I have the following observations:

1. I'm not really interested in how old this is or whose design it is. I just want to know if it works for me and if it's value for money.

2. The bar feels a little heavy but it is robust. The covering is soft and easy to hold. The top hat quick release works easily.

3. It has adjustable width from 45 to 60cm. It came set up on 55cm and I have no reason to change it yet. Changing requires pulling up the plastic sleeve, undoing the larks knot and threading the retaining line through another hole setting and reconnecting to the line with the larks knot.

4. It has a big opening with an aluminum lined hole which does not bind on turns. The stainless steel rings on the brake lines are very useful to peg the kite quickly and efficiently. John mentioned these in his report. I like them!

5. Although I am not keen on the 2 ball/stainless steel ring bar locking system, mainly because I am not sure how quickly I could take it off in a hurry, I have used it and it works well. As previously mentioned (if you'll excuse the pun) - it's not  a show stopper. Not worth playing around with to improve it if it increases costs.

6. Bottom line - I like the bar and have no major concerns at all. In my opinion, it's value for money and on limited use so far, does everything I want it to.

 

 

[BigTone]

Funny you mention the rings... they have grown on me. Wasn't sure about them at first, but they are useful, either to slip your finger through for a quick rest, or hooking into my hardwire for longer breaks.

I have two of the totem bars, and have found the 7.5 in particular is a bit less twitchy when set to 45/50cm.

I'm sure there are better bars out there, but these do the job for me.

So - how was the 3.5?  :-)

 

[Tiger37]

Wind was not really strong enough for the 3.5 but I did static fly it. Wow - it is very quick and extremely responsive. I'm looking forward to flying it in stronger winds!

[Tiger37]

Please see my addition to John Holgate's review of the LongStar2 5.5m in the review section. 

[windstruck]

Finally got my 3.5 and 9.5m LS2s yesterday. Once again they got hung up in the DHL Vortex for what seemed like an eternity. They arrived one week to the day before I go to IBX on Lake Ivanpah. Whoop!

The colors, craftsmanship and overall quality look to be OUTSTANDING. I've also just received 6 and 12m Peak3s. At first blush I'm liking the LS2s more than the P3s, but flying will of course be the test. 

I want to make a particular shout out about Steffen's new bar.  It looks and feels great!  Really nice refined touches and a great chicken loop. IMO, the Born kites had historically been nicer than the Born bars, but now this latest bar looks to be every bit as nice as the kites, which have always been 1st rate in my book. 

With good fortune I should have these babies in the sky next week! 

[Tiger37]

5 hours ago, windstruck said:

Finally got my 3.5 and 9.5m LS2s yesterday. Once again they got hung up in the DHL Vortex for what seemed like an eternity. They arrived one week to the day before I go to IBX on Lake Ivanpah. Whoop!

The colors, craftsmanship and overall quality look to be OUTSTANDING. I've also just received 6 and 12m Peak3s. At first blush I'm liking the LS2s more than the P3s, but flying will of course be the test. 

I want to make a particular shout out about Steffen's new bar.  It looks and feels great!  Really nice refined touches and a great chicken loop. IMO, the Born kites had historically been nicer than the Born bars, but now this latest bar looks to be every bit as nice as the kites, which have always been 1st rate in my book. 

With good fortune I should have these babies in the sky next week! 

Totally agree on your comments about the Born Kites bar. Let's have some photos of your new LS2s and P3s from Lake ivanpah!

[windstruck]

I flew the 3.5m LS2 for several hours yesterday on the Ivanpah playa at IBX.  Winds were horrendous (in a good way).  Base winds in the high 20s to low 30s mph with lots of gusts in the mid 40s and at least one gust that I clocked with my windmeter at 53!  Thankfully I wasn't flying during the 50+ gusts which were pretty much a "brown out".  Brown Out because you couldn't see anything for all the dust flying, and Brown Out for what was going on in the seats of any poor buggy riders or land sailors that were out when those beasts came across the playa.

The 3.5 was FANTASTIC.  Incredibly stable and predictable.  With the bar pulled in it was steady as a rock.  With the bar fully out in a high speed depower it barely flapped at all, just a tiny amount at the bottom corners.  Contrast this to the 4m Peak2 that I flew on Ivanpah in similar conditions last year and it was night and day difference.  3.5 LS2 was rock steady and smooth in its power build up and dumping with bar movement; 4.0 P2 flapped like a furious bird when bar was out at high speeds and its power curve is drastic.  I've read that the 4.0m P3 is refined so maybe this has decreased (flapping and super steep power curve).

Nice apparent wind feel too.  It was decent, but not outstanding in upwind.  Not a problem, but not a standout either.  One other positive thing:  great feel during high wind hot launches.  Kite darted to zenith without yanking me off my feet and stayed calmly at zenith while I fiddled getting into my buggy seat, clipping in my AQR, etc.

In a low rolling resistance setting you need 30+ winds for this to be the right sized kite.  40+ and you are feeling the groove!

It's a winner!

[Tiger37]

@windstruck great to hear such positive comments on the LS 2 3.5m. I have not had a chance to try mine out in strong winds yet but am looking forward to doing so. Sounds like you are having a good time out there. 

[windstruck]

Had a go with the 9.5m LS2 today. I rode it for a while in slightly too much wind. I don't own the 7.5 and I suspect it would have been ideal for my personal conditions today. To compensate for a feeling of too much power I experimented with pulling in the trim line. This worked to reduce power but came at a cost of quite a bit of difficulty in steering. The kite kept wanting to tip down into the ground. I had to pull back the top side of the bar all the way and even sometimes grab the brake line itself to keep the tip off the ground. Not too good a feeling. 

Under more appropriate wind conditions a little later on it was a champ and I grew to like it a lot. One thing I do want to say is that in my eyes the LS2 line are GORGEOUS. 

I'm thinking of getting the 7.5m LS2. I really like the 3.5 a ton.  I don't intend to get the 5.5m or 11.5m because I own the 6m and 12m P3s. 

Not having P3s and LS2s in (nearly) overlapping sizes makes it a challenge to really compare the two.  Both are very competent SS DPs.  Both suffer from way too much bridling, but that is the price One pays for single skin. On a wild wind day on a surface like the Ivanpah playa the bridling of the LS2 is easily tangled.  Not a show stopper, but watching friends with FBs like Vipers for example and it is night and day different.